Laura B asks on the DAILY HEIGHTS message boards: “When I read ‘What Happens If It Bursts?’ in last weekend’s Times, I couldn’t help wondering how Prospect Heights would fare in an economic downturn. The article says that proximity to resources (transportation, shopping) is key to property maintaining its value, which would seem to bode well for the PH. What do others think?
The article doesn’t say much about Brooklyn but quotes Brad Lander of the Pratt Institute Center for Community and Environmental Development (PICCED) as saying that fashionable areas playing host to “fringe gentrification” typically get harder hit: “If prices come down in general, Mr. Lander said, buyers will be less willing to deal with the relative isolation, limited retail and school choice in a place like Williamsburg.”
Prospect Heights would do just fine during an economic downturn. It is not a “fringe neighborhood”, being located near three subway lines, the busiest bus line in Brooklyn, the Brooklyn Museum, and Prospect Park. Besides, we had an economic downturn after the dotcom crash and after 9/11; despite this, rents and real estate values have risen steadily and the neighborhood continues to gentrify.
I think the benchmark of a “downturn” would be ’87. That seemed to take the wind out of the sails of the market until ’95.
Some variables that were around in like high crime and less expensive suburbs are not in the mix now.
With property taxes/transportation costs/gas etc… in the suburbs rising NYC doesn’t seem so expensive (relatively).
I’m predicting a correction of about 10-15% in the NYC area. We still will have some pressure from the European investors.
agree with jack, these things do help to insulate us.
but the PH could use some more stores and amenities, and if it’s the mass market chains that have to do it instead of small mom and pops, well, bless them.
i have to think the atlantic center (target, bath and body works) only did good things for our property values… just as i think the arena complex would as well (don’t misunderstand me: i don’t want taxpayer money going to it and i don’t want anyone forced from their homes; i just want people to realize that we can benefit – in a way that would be impossible otherwise – from big developers taking an interest in our neighborhood).
in order to better support property values in case of an real estate market downturn, i would welcome a starbucks, a pottery barn, or a banana republic. i might not shop there, but i would smile when i walked by.
“just as i think the arena complex would as well (don’t misunderstand me: i don’t want taxpayer money going to it and i don’t want anyone forced from their homes”
if you don’t want those things, how can you favor the arena project? It includes those things.
Something will be built on those yards and it will help your pressure property value.
“Mom & pop” stores keep the money in the neighborhood, chains siphon it out. You wouldn’t even shop there? Don’t you want places in the neighborhood that you WOULD want to shop at? I think that’s what makes a neighborhood valuable.
Are you trying to sell your place right away? Do it now, because there are plenty of towns that already are cram-full of the same exact chain stores you would be really happy living in, judging by your post. PH HAS been opening more “Mom & Pop” shops and restaurants at a dizzying pace, obvious if your read this site on a regular basis, and they are NOT chains, and *they* are definitely upping the value of the ‘hood. It’s not Starbucks that does it. Jeez.
To the third poster: I agree that the arena will benefit property values. I also agree that the Atlantic Center and Target have helped.
To “ratnerville”: What do you mean by “pressure” property value? Is it safe to assume that you misspelled “precious”? In any event, my wife and I worked hard to save for our property and make absolutely no apologies to anyone for cheering the ongoing gentrification that will surely increase the value of our investment. None.
everybody wants their property to increase in value but i think the point is that you’d like to think that the things that would pump up its value would also be things you enjoy as well. would you favor increased property value vs. a neighborhood you’d really like to live in?
Hello Chris,
First of all, I would like to apologize if I came across as hostile in my previous post. Sometimes it seems that no developer in our general area can stack two bricks without a drove of crazed yuppies coming out shrieking and frothing about traffic jams and architectural integrity. I saw it with the Barnes and Noble in Park Slope, the movie theater on Court Street, the Target store near the Atlantic Center, and now the Atlantic Yards. Regardless of size, the drama always unfolds in the same manner. At this point, the local papers are little more than anti-Ratner propoganda. And don’t even get me started on people like Patti Hagan who claim to be acting in my best interest. I also find it hypocritical that yuppies who allegedly support “mom and pop” stores suddenly fall mute when a discount store or nail salon goes out of business to make way for a wine bar or sushi restaurant.
Anyway, to answer your question, of course I want Prospect Heights to have things that will both increase my property values and provide me with enjoyment. Implicit in the “versus” aspect of your question, however, is the belief that these things cannot co-exist. With that, I disagree. I love the new bars and restaurants on Vanderbilt Avenue, but would also welcome a Starbucks or a Banana Republic, as I would shop in both. If ten years from now Vanderbilt is filled with chains, it wouldn’t bother me. Brooklyn is a large place, well worth exploring, and I have always been willing to travel for entertainment.
Like it or not, the Atlantic Yards project will most likely go through. Ratner has wealth and power, as well as the support of Marty Markowitz, Michael Bloomberg, and George Pataki. And it’s a pretty rare occasion that a man as rich as Ratner does not get his way. As livid as this might make the throngs of protesters, I am a sports fan and relish the thought of being able to walk to an NBA game from my home. Go Nets!
I’m not even remotely a yuppie, if you were referring to me, who posted above. By nail salons, I’m guessing you mean the filthy “Nailgaazasm” that was where our beloved Home Heating Oil is now. $.99 stores are the mark of an impoverished neighborhood, not a thriving one. Those are not what I consider to be “Mom & Pop”, actually $.99 stores are chains, and usually hire new immigrants at an extremely low wage to run them. No, I don’t miss them.
The sushi restaurants {Gen on Washington}, wine bars, other restaurants, shops and boutiques on Vanderbilt and in PH in general are ALL OWNED BY ONE OR TWO PEOPLE, who mostly also live in PH, shop here, pay rent or mortgage here, send their kids to school here, buy groceries here. Circulate the money here. Not a faceless corporation selling unhealthy fast food made and frozen elsewhere. MMMM, CHuckie CHeese!
As far as Patti Hagan and local newspapers, you are the recipient of the good they do, like it or not, she’s fighting to keep our ‘hood livable and not overrun by out of context scams to make the rat richer. She, and the local paper are not anti-development, only anti-out-of-context development that forces people from their homes and businesses at tax-payer expense, with no community input.
I might also mention Shaya Boymelgreen, owner of Newswalk, who’s building a hotel and condos on land he owns, {also threatened by eminent domain} in the footprint where the rat want his luxury housing towers. Let’s see these two duke it out. Mr. Boymelgreen has his offices here, and many of his family members also live in PH. He is quite a formidable opponent.
The stadium is not even *remotely* a done deal. Greece will be paying for the last Olympics for DECADES. So let’s just shutter some more firehouses and have fewer cops and teachers so I can walk to a freaking game.
BREAD AND CIRCUSES. That’s the gist of it, if you know any ancient Roman history. Keeps the rabble quiet while they’re being fleeced.
There’s an excellent book called “Emergence” by Steven Johnson that relates to what’s happening here. A quote:
“Emergence is what happens when the whole is smarter than the sum of its parts. It’s what happens when you have a system of relatively simple-minded component parts — often there are thousands or millions of them — and they interact in relatively simple ways. And yet somehow out of all this interaction some higher level structure or intelligence appears, usually without any master planner calling the shots. These kinds of systems tend to evolve from the ground up.”
This is about how neighborhoods evolve & grow. Ratner’s scam destroys the natural evolution of PH, which is doing exceedingly fine without him. We didn’t start prospering because Target is here, we are prospering DESPITE the Target. A similar situation could be what Robert Moses did to thriving neighborhoods, he literally destroyed many of them by ignoring the natural evolution and building way out of context highways right through the middle. Tons of documentation, etc support this.
Why are we still letting greedy developers get away with it? Why can’t we learn from history?
“I’m not even remotely a yuppie.”
No problem, we’re all entitled to choose our labels. Still, I don’t recall seeing any working-class people in Gen or Half. Mostly white, college-educated (you guessed it) YUPPIES! By the way, I am an avowed yuppie and proud of it.
“By nail salons, I’m guessing you mean the filthy “Nailgaazasm…$.99 stores are the mark of an impoverished neighborhood, not a thriving one. Those are not what I consider to be a “Mom and Pop”, actually $.99 stores are chains, and usually hire new immigrants at an extremely low wage to run them. No I don’t miss them.”
This is an excellent example of my point. You and your type eschew the term yuppie, but turn your noses up at those stores that do not fit into your world. It’s OK for certain types of small businesses to go under to make way for the types of small businesses that you and other YUPPIES deem worthy. Like the restaurants and botiques you cheer, nail salons and discount stores (most of which are NOT chains) are also owned by one or two people. Even though you do not miss them, I’m sure the owners who saw their livelihoods destroyed to make way for your (and my) sushi would have quite a different opinion. Your hypocrisy is second only to your denial that it exists. And only a YUPPIE would consider the presence of discount stores a sign of blight. Many thriving commercial strips in Brooklyn are replete with discount stores (think Flatbush Avenue, Graham Avenue, and Fifth Avenue, to name a few). Lastly, your concern over the low wages of new immigrants does not seem to extend to the restaurant workers who are employed in YOUR version of “Mom and Pop” establishments.
“As far as Patti Hagan and local newspapers, you are the recipient of the good they do, like it or not…”
No, I am not. They do NOTHING for me. Repeat: NOTHING. She screams her OWN views while claiming to represent my neighborhood. Some people agree with her, some do not, but in no way is she the spokesperson for everyone in Prospect Heights. The papers are amusing to read (especially Stanley Gershbein), but I view them as in the same league as rags like the New York Press.
“She and the local paper are not anti-development, only anti-out-of-context development that forces people from their homes and businesses at tax-payer expense, with no community involvement.”
And just who decides what is “out of context”? You? Me? Patti Hagan? What if you decide that a stadium is “out of context”, but I decide that it is “in context”? What then? Do we take a vote and go with the majority? You may feel that the stadium is inappropriate, but that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be built. Also, your concern about displacement is blatantly selective. Even if the Atlantic Yards complex does not get built (which is highly unlikely), gentrification will still price people out. This does not seem to bother you. Once again, your hypocrisy is apparent. When Bruce Ratner displaces residents, it’s “out of context development” and “eminent domain abuse”, but when good old-fashioned gentrification displaces “filthy nail salons” and old-time residents, it’s, as you say, “natural evolution”. Lastly, your statement about there being no community involvement is inaccurate. BUILD and ACORN are involved. They may not agree with your version of events, but that hardly declassifies them as community organizations. This reminds me of when women’s rights advocates and African-Americans do not see Condi Rice as an African-American woman simply because she does not share their political views.
“The stadium is not even remotely a done deal…so let’s shutter a few more firehouses and have fewer cops so that I can walk to a freaking game.”
If you bothered to read my post, I did not say that the stadium was a done deal. I said that it will most likely go through. There’s a difference. One is definite, the other is a prediction. Of course, it’s not remotely a done deal, because there are still steps to be taken. But, I repeat, the stadium will most likely go through. Ratner is more rich and powerful that the small bands of protesters who occasionally fly from their perches, so I don’t see him losing this battle. And your attempt to make me feel guilty about being excited about a basketball team will not work. Even if the city shuttered ten firehouses and fired 1,000 cops I would still be thrilled to see the Nets play.
“Why are we still letting greedy developers get away with it? Why can’t we learn from history?”
The truth is, most people simply do not care. For every Patti Hagan and Daniel Goldstein, there are thousands who can take it or leave it. That is precisely why most residents of the Atlantic Arts building gladly sold their properties to Ratner and used the proceeds to acquire more stately properties outside of the neighborhood. In ten years, when the arena and housing are built, all of this will be forgotten. By that time, the only concern will be whether or not the Nets will make it to the playoffs. When you ask about learning from history, look no further than the mirror. At your age, you should have learned that in this country the rich guy rarely loses and money trumps all.
Go Nets!
There are so many wrong statements and assumptions in your post, I’m going to pass on the whole thing. Good luck to you and your hoped-for skyhigh property values. Think of me if/when drunken Nets fans are yelling, puking and leaving garbage on your pristine, valuable stoop.
And I’ve already been priced out of my apt. This month, actually!
If you think Build and Acorn are not funded by Ratner, you’re woefully naive. Takes all kinds, I guess, Jack.
Are the Nets still in last place?
C’mon, sje, don’t go away. Even though we disagree, I was still enjoying our lively debate. It sure irks me when someone cops out by using the “you’re too stupid to debate” tactic.
And not to worry about my stoop being splattered with vomit, as it’s a good 15 minute walk from the stadium and ten feet behind a locked gate.
Sorry to hear that you were priced out of your apartment. I’ve experienced the same feeling in Park Slope, Carroll Gardens, Williamsburg, and Fort Greene. As I said, stadium or no stadium, people in Prospect Heights will continue to get priced out due to gentrification (or, as you would say, “natural evolution”). That’s why my wife and I saved like hell for four years so that we could be our own landlord.
I’ve heard many times that BUILD and ACORN are funded by Ratner, but I have yet to see a shred of evidence to back this up. Care to offer any? Anyone else? If I’m wrong, I’ll have no problem admitting it.
DailyHeights: As of today, the Nets are 33-38, making them the 3rd in their division and 20th (out of 30 teams) in the league. Definitely not last place, but pathetic nonetheless.
By the way, I love this site, especially your sense of humor. Thanks for a great neighborhood resource.
My name is Daily Heights, and I approve this thread. In fact, I think it is awesome.
I feel I can’t debate properly with you, Jack, and am content to agree to disagree.
I believe the stadium deal will go through as well although I am opposed to it. I am also opposed to chain stores like Starbucks popping up. That said, even without those things happening the neighborhood will still be gentrified and the working class/working poor will all but be run out of here unless they already owned their property before all this real estate madness. It really sucks and is a cliche. Poor white people move in to a black/puerto rican neighborhood, other more upperclass white people get wind of it, move their asses in, rents go up, racial tension rises, NYU buys that shit up and everyone else is pushed to the outskirts where it happens again. It’s capitalism for you. Which is why I am going to start an anarcho-syndicalist commune in the Botanic Gardens.
dear anonymous. how exactly could it be argued that an arena (let alone 17 highrises all packed together) is in context with the location where its proposed? i’d love to hear an argument for how its in context. ‘splain away.
gentrification has its problems. big ones. eminent domain, is not gentrification. people in atlantic arts didn’t “happily” sell AND many of them regret it because facing the market now they can’t find anything like what they had, for the most part. ALL of them were opposed to Ratner’s scam. and it is a scam. the taxpayers pay 1 billion for his enormous profit and monopoly of Brooklyn’s most important (i think) crossroads. great stuff.
speaking of gentrification, gentrification at the measured pace of the past decade is bad enough, but make no mistake Ratner’s plans are for one massive 7.6 million sq. foot gentrifier. Its the mega-gentrifier all in one blow. you approve?
I like the Nets. i like basketball. but at the expense of homes, quality of life, tax dollars? fuck it.
Sorry, that above post was by me, I obviously forgot to type in my name.
“I’d love to hear an argument for how it [The Atlantic Yards] is in context.”
If you had bothered to read my post carefully, you would understand that I was making an arguing for neither side. I merely posed the question about who decides what is “in context”? Needless to say, it did not get answered. Frankly, I see nothing wrong with having high-rise buildings adjacent to low-rise buildings.
“People in atlantic arts didn’t “happily” sell AND many of them regret it because facing the market now they can’t find anything like what they had, for the most part. All of them opposed Ratner’s scam.”
If they truly opposed the project, then they would not have sold. At least Daniel Goldstein has the guts to stand his ground. If they regret their decisions, such is life. It’s a bit difficult for me to feel sorry for people who could afford to buy property in such an upscale building. It’s like weeping for someone whose annual salary was reduced from $150,000 to $135,000.
“Ratner’s plans are for one massive 7.6 million sq. foot gentrifier. Its the mega-gentrifier all in one blow. you approve?”
Yes. Wholeheartedly. And without apology.
I consider myself a “Proho pioneer” in that I bought in Prosepct Heights back in 1987 when SRO’s, high crime rates, and no or few amenities were the norm. I experienced the dreaded negative equity for a grueling 4 1/2 years. A few in my small co-op sold at a loss and 2 apartments were vacant (though owned by relocation company)for over a year as property values slipped lower and lower. But folks gradually moved to the nabe, shops and restaurants opened, and I needed a place to live after all. Who’s laghing now? Markets go up, markets go down, If you have the time and like your place, who cares?